I’m right, it’s my right (right?)
Health care workers in New York are being required to get the H1N1 (swine flu) vaccine, which could involve two shots. Some are saying they don’t want to get the shots. A woman who works in the health care field who I exchanged emails with said it was her right — freedom of choice — to refuse to get the shots. You can choose not to get the shots, I said, but then your employer might choose to fire you.
We don’t have the freedom to choose to do anything we want to do, in this society, or to refuse to do anything we don’t want to do. And we certainly don’t have those freedoms at work.
“Freedom of choice” does not appear in the Bill of Rights. But people have odd ideas even about the freedoms that are enumerated in the amendments to the Constitution, such as freedom of speech. Freedom of speech does not mean you can post any comment you want on The Post-Star Web site and expect that we will put it up. Freedom of speech means you can stand out on the sidewalk and say just about whatever you like, or hand out your own paper that says whatever you like, or publish your own Web site that says whatever you like.
At work, we have to follow the dictates, within reason, of our employers. If my employer says no swearing at work, then I’d better not swear if I want to keep my job. Likewise, if a hospital says its employees must get flu shots, they have a choice — get the shots or work elsewhere.
Freedoms mostly apply to individuals, and do not obligate other people or organizations to follow the whims of your expression of your freedoms. So you can publish anything you want in your own paper, but not in The Post-Star. You can say what you like in a public space, like a sidewalk, but if you say it in my house I can kick you out.
You’d think most people would understand the difference. But many – like the woman who insisted to me she had the right to refuse to get flu shots, and keep her job — do not.
You guys know that I’m not a plumber, right? Is that supposed to be a metaphor for something? I respect plumbers, and I’m not insulted in any way by someone else’s silly assumption, but I ain’t one. Might look in to it though, I hear they make good dough. Today, I’m making massage oil…
Re: “…empowered by your ideals of what you were taught by someone smarter than yourself, years ago, supplemented by their reading suggestions.”
100% correct. There’s even a name for that where I’m from- they call it “education.” It’s expected that smarter folks like me do not discontinue the process of learning when we outgrow the need to be taught by others (y’know, like when you can read and comprehend all by yourself), and so we read and research the subjects that interest us on our own. So I do. A whole lot. And if you care to challenge me on hard facts, I will wholeheartedly welcome that opportunity. I do actually know my stuff, and I’m confident that I will win a debate with you regarding the Constitution, the laws pertaining to it, and the duties and responsibilities appertaining to U.S. citizenship in general- without delving into the wild world of opinion. Just the facts. If, on the other hand, you want to continue your petulant and unfounded “burn fest,” expect no response from me.
Will,
R.B. was right about one thing. This:
“you still have a very weak understanding of the concept of rights. It’s neat that you focus on them so often in your little blog here”
…was the wrong way to express myself. I do believe that you are in over your head when you wright about rights issues, but I wish I had put it more politely. Please accept my apology.
Ricky, Thanks for the catch. I would always rather be called out than to remain a jerk.
Sorry, I misread the post and thought it came from nort. My invitation to him still stands, as it does for you Ricky…
Actually nort, Matt Funicello’s been gracious enough to allow me to host this discussion at his Rock Hill Bakehouse. I’ll be there from 3 to 7 today, and I would enjoy the opportunity to chat with you.
nortnort,
BRAVO! Great point!
Anthony, aren’t you suppose to be in the town park for 9/11 remembrance and truth sharing? I wish I could get there in time to see that!
It’s 9/11 today, and the topic is flu shots. Encapsulated in all of this is what’s wrong with Liberalism. Damn it, where’s the forsight? Where’s the gravity? Let’s quibble, and forget. Let’s spout witicisms. I’m ashamed.
I ,Think a plumber has a intellect as high as any great debater or person stuck in lecturing people on what usually is a educated guess. Heres my GUESS . Why does anyone have to get the vaccine if they are not sick? Do they have the right to choose not to be injected with a vaccine if they are not sick with influenza? I say yes, refuse it if you want to, its your right to question what the vaccine will do to your own body and Who knows, That answer, for sure. As far as the double talk . As you will !
Wasn’t someone supposed to be in the city park today? Jeez Louise, I’ll be selling pies nearby!
RE: When you stick out your face someone is always happy to throw a pie in it!
And what exactly is behind that pie, intellectually-speaking??? Evidently not much.
I never claimed to be a Constitution expert, but I’m quite certain I know more about it than you. I’ve read it and understand it. Why don’t you show me the passages I’ve missed these years that support the “crackpotism” you seem to express in your condemnations?
Anthony Cerro,
The mentioning of him being a plumber was NOT a degrading remark, maybe it is to you. I mentioned it simply because he talks down to people when the issue of rights and privileges comes up and acts as if he is some authority or learned scholar on the matter, and spends time learning more, like he is some academic. He is not. Being a plumber doesn’t offer up a lot of time to attend lectures on the matter. It sounds more like he is set in his ways on the matter and is unyielding, and it’s fueled by some blog that is an echo chamber for people like him. It’s hard to buy into the same schtick from him, especially when he himself is arrogant and condescending while railing people for being the same.
You and he saw it as a personal attack, which tips his hand on his self esteem. I was merely attacking his routine and his matchbook knowledge on ONE subject. I knew a lot of guys like this back in grad school and they are still unemployed due to their lack of awareness of their intellectual shortcomings and unjustified sense of superiority.
Anthony, spare me any future five or six lengthy posts, and just know that there are going to be people like me out there who will never agree with you and Bryan, and don’t get so mad when someone calls you out on your routine.
More crackpotism from Tony? Now an expert on constitutional law, as well as health care, who complains about “zinger-du-jour” comments, must certainly realize that this is the perfect forum for such nonsense. When you stick out your face someone is always happy to throw a pie in it!
nortnort,
I guess he is. Haven’t heard anything back from him.
As for the “Ad-Hominem Twins”, you go attacking someone for being condescending, yet reduce him to a “plumber”, incapable of advancing himself any further in life???
Where do you come up with this stuff??? How does it PROVE that he’s wrong and you’re right? How does it prove anything for that matter? How do you know he’s a plumber in the first place?
Nort, you’re the king of zingers my friend, but unfortunately share a similar inability to debate the facts, choosing instead to ridicule the speaker when you have no convincing counter-argument.
If he’s another case of “someone who doesn’t know what he’s blogging about”, then what are you? If you know any more about The Constitution (or anything else for that matter), then can you at least provide a citation, reference, opinion, or scrap of anything significant or meaningful as something of a side-dish to the abundant portions of zinger-du-jour you dish out?
Jeez Louise!!!
Constitutionally speaking, bmull is indeed correct in his assertion that this health care worker can refuse to be injected as a matter of right. A quick review of the Powers Granted to the Legislature will reveal that Congress can not make any law that either:
a) compels you to do/consent to something against your wishes, or
b) prevents you from doing anything you wish, unless the exercise of your actions infringes upon the rights/liberties of another.
Where the quandry lies is in the fact that she applied for, obtained, and subsequently CONSENTED to government regulation and jurisdiction that comes in the form of any license *assuming she is an RN or LPN*.
Now the question to be asked is, “does Congress or any other government body have the authority to issue licenses?” Remember a license is defined as “the granting of a permission to do something that would otherwise be illegal”. Property owners do it all the time by granting “trespass” licenses to hunters, snowmobilers, etc., but the key here is that THEY OWN that which they undertake to license.
The government may require certification of competency to work in the health field, but it does not own the bodies of its’ healthcare workers. For any government body to require anyone to submit to these injections against his will is repugnant to The Constitution. The Constitution declares itself to be the supreme law of the land, and that any law repugnant to it is rendered null and void.
somehow, saying you can’t swear at work seems a bit different than saying you have to let me inject your body with something if you want to continue being employed here. I’d like to see what our courts might have to say about that.
It’s that “one trick-pony” thing, Ricky.
Hello, pot! You obviously didn’t read your post very well.
When you can not attack the idea, attack the man. Classy!
Re: Bryan; another case of someone who doesn’t know what he is blogging about!
Bryan,
Are you a writer or someone who thinks outside of his own immovable ideals?
Bryan,
“you still have a very weak understanding of the concept of rights. It’s neat that you focus on them so often in your little blog here”
Funny how you are so condescending towards people when they speak on the issues of rights and privileges. Let me clue you in here — you are a plumber which is likely you are not able to do much in the way of development, such as being a professor, someone writing scholarly articles that are peer reviewed, expanding your horizons by doing educational sabbaticals, or growing intellectually by being able to speak on more subjects than your belief in the constitution, and rights. A constitution scholar, you are not.
You are someone who seems stuck in your little world, in a small area, empowered by your ideals of what you were taught by someone smarter than yourself, years ago, supplemented by their reading suggestions.
You chide people for being arrogant and ignorant/misinformed, yet you only seem to chime in on only ONE subject, with the same talking points. Get another trick and try to speak on more than just one subject. On this one, you aren’t completely right
D’uh,
For the educated elite, NYS is the entity requiring health workers to get the flu shots – perhaps wrongly placed fears are the basis of this law. This law was passed in August by our New York State legislators.
So as far as berating your employer, LEARN and KNOW why they are enforcing such a rule.
The MANDATE is from New York State!
Source:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/19/health/policy/19swine.html?_r=1
Quote from NY Times
“Every year in the U.S., on average:
5% to 20% of the population gets the flu,
more than 200,000 people are hospitalized from seasonal flu complications and about 36,000 people die from seasonal flu.”
Also: http://www.health.state.ny.us/diseases/communicable/influenza/seasonal/what_everyone_should_know.htm
The recommendations and the objections are NOT new. I remember these back in the 1970s. IN 1976 (Swine Flu year) my governmetal employer requested we all get the vaccinations; the year that gives many of the “doubters” their basis to refuse. Some of the vaccine was faulty – thus giving many a mild flu-like illness; the same year the GBS became a problem.
Medicine is an art based on science. Each one of us is different, so our reactions to any specific medical intervention may or may not be “textbook.”
I’m sure New York State is trying to force these vaccinations in an attempt to prevent an epidemic of flu.
It is true the regular seasonal flu shots may be ineffective – NOT due to any problems BUT due to the fact that the strains chosen for use in the 2009-2010 innoculations are based on past (including 2008-2009) flu seasons’ viral strains.
The viruses mutate almost faster than we humans can track. There is also considerable lead-time to prepare, test and distribute the vaccines.
In the instance of the “H1N1″ (swine flu to many) strain the whole system has geared up to produce the “H1N1″ flu vaccine.
I am in continual contact with many different nurses and healthcare personnel. They are skilled, and yes, some object to the mandatory flu shot law. They have been wrongly blaming the Hospital, but this NYS law leaves no choice to medical providers.
No one knows if the “H1N1″ will become an epidemic this winter. BUT, one thing for certain, ANYONE who contracts that flu strain will be spreading and shedding the virus to all those with whom they have contact.
I neither can NOR want to force anyone to get a “flu shot” BUT, conversely, I do NOT want any contact with those who do NOT take precautions, including healthcare providers!
BTW, I had a bad reaction to that 1976 flu!
Yet, due to my age and health status I have had flu vaccinations the past few years and I am signed up to get the first round in a few days.
As I write this I do not know if my age group will be recommended for the “H1N1″ flu; it seems the medical advisors are still weighing the need as well as pros and cons.
As of today, US & World Population:
U.S. 307,403,995
World 6,783,127,563
22:23 GMT (EST+5) Sep 09, 2009
Statistically, in Glens Falls area, several people are likely to die of flu or its complications this winter.
The GBS:
“In 1976, a type of influenza (swine flu) vaccine was associated with Guillain-Barré Syndrome (GBS). Since then, flu vaccines have not been clearly linked to GBS. However, if there is a risk of GBS from current flu vaccines, it would be no more than 1 or 2 cases per million people vaccinated. This is much lower than the risk of severe influenza, which can be prevented by vaccination.”
From: http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/vis/downloads/vis-flu.pdf
A general flu vaccine fact sheet.
I have no idea how serious the flu season will prove to be, but, statistically I am going to take the odds that the vaccine will help me personally avoid the flu. I have to protect myself from those who are possible disease spreaders!
It is very unfortunate that the “wise {choke-cough-gag-regurgitate} legislators” chose to “force” healthcare workers to get shots; I suspect more will try to avoid innoculation as a result.
Education as to the facts, risks and realities, versus fears, rumor mongering and uninformed opinions would be so much better for all concerned.
But just look at the pandemic flue epidemics of 1918 and 1919. In that era the disease spread far-and-wide – long before jet travel. Thousands of American “Doughboys” suffered effects of that disease in that pre-antibiotic era!
This atricle at Wikipedia is easy for all to understand:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1918_flu_pandemic
“In the U.S., about 28% of the population suffered, and 500,000 to 675,000 died.”
This woman should be terminated for posing a threat to the patient population, and any license she has should be revolked. Health care professionals know better, taking vaccines or other medications to protect the patient is not unusual. Wrongful termination is not an issue here, any more than freedom of choice is!
better to be prepared for a pandemic than unprepared. We’d complain if our government didn’t prepare for the worst.
better to be prepared for a pandemnic than unprepared. We’d complain if our government didn’t prepare for the worst.
Close Will, but you still have a very weak understanding of the concept of rights. It’s neat that you focus on them so often in your little blog here, but you might want to learn more about the subject. You do much to discredit yourself when you mock someone for standing up for their obvious right to self-ownership.
The lack of provision for “freedom of choice” in the Bill of Rights does not mean that we do not enjoy such freedom as a matter of right. Likewise with a similar lack of provision for freedom to claim exclusive right to ones own body. We have those rights; they need not be written down anywhere. If I decide- for any reason- that I do not want a substance to be put in my body, then that ought to be the end of the discussion. I think it is obvious to reasonable people that it is wrong for an employer to threaten termination over this issue. The body belongs to the nurse; not to the hospital. I would support anyone who would choose to sue the hospital for wrongful termination resulting from a decision made by the employee regarding the employee’s own health. To not support the employee in such a case is equal to claiming that the hospital has a right to claim partial ownership of the employees body. That is a fascist view (please look up fascism before rebutting that).
You’re correct to point out that freedom does not prescribe all decisions for an individual, and that consequences are always included in the equation, and that to be free, one must be responsible. We must choose our battles. You may choose to play Guillain-Barre syndrome roulette with your children and yourself, but to be compelled by law to do so is a different matter.
Will, the nurse who wrote you is right. She alone has the right to choose which substances may be injected into her blood.
The whole H1N1 thing is the most overblown, overhyped bunch of hooey I’ve seen in decades, and frankly the media is to blame for much of it.
That said, I wouldn’t get the shot, because I don’t trust our medical establishment, which is simply trying to generate money.